Monday, 26 September 2011

Could you show Jordan Shelley another way?

When I heard that Jordan Shelley wanted to speak to me I admit my heart sank. His world must have turned upside down in the last week. Would he blame me for helping to burst the balloon?
But he wasn't ringing up to complain, far from it.
He'd read my latest blog and he wanted to take me up on the offer of being shown other ways training. I say all credit to him for picking himself up and using this unfortunate experience as a positive opportunity to learn and make some new friends.
"Because it is all about the dogs," he explained.
So good behaviour folk, where to start?
I had thought that the media storm would have passed now, but it seems photographers are still hiding in Jordan's bushes and reporters still knocking on his door.
One way or another Jordan's name has become famous and he seemed remarkably philosophiocal about the experience. He regrets not getting more control of the edit and not having it badged 'don't try this at home'. A lot of the shots were out of sequence. Roxy is fine he wanted me to know.
But I don't think there are many 21 year old's who would be so positive after the week he's had, he honestly sounds really excited about meeting new people and widening his knowledge.
Come on dog world, prove me right that you are lovely people and don't just give lip-service to positive and reward based training - click and treat Jordan for asking for your help.
Email me beverley@dogstodaymagazine.co.uk and I'll pass them on.







42 comments:

dogsandgeeks said...

Wow! All credit to Jordan for wanting to learn, and not taking offence.

I believe Iron Mountain Canine had a great offer for him!

Steve Mann said...

I'd be more than happy for Jordan to join us for the 2 day 'career as a dog trainer' course.
Details via www.imdt.uk.com or www.alphadogtrainingschool.co.uk

Steve Mann
IMDT. APDT. MBIPDT

Carri Westgarth said...

Hi Beverley
How fantastic!
I can offer for him to sit in on our dog and puppy training classes on the Wirral. They are taught by myself and Erica Peachey, a pioneer of reward-based puppy socialisation classes in the UK. I would also like to offer that he can accompany me to deliver a canine ethology and dog behaviour lecture that I give to Animal Behaviour BSc students in January. Unfortunately I do not see problem behaviour consultations myself at the moment due to my time being taken up in research and studying, but I am sure many members of the APBC would be happy for him to observe them, and I can highly recommend that he contacts Karen Wild in particular.
Best wishes and looking forward to hearing how he gets on.
Dr Carri Westgarth
Full Member of the APBC

Dragonrat Jewellery said...

Kudos to him; he may be young, but being willing to learn is the first step.

Ems said...

Wow yes!
I cannot offer much, but he would be more than welcome over on the positively.com/forum that I run, where he can see how we advise people for the safest possible treatment AND most effective treatment of their dogs behaviour problems.
Being net-based we CANNOT give out advice that is in any way risky, and we HAVE to get as full a history as is possible from the owners and help them change their attitudes and the way they do things, to effect a change in their dogs behaviour.
So if he would like to join, under a pseudonym if necessary and pm me on there (username Emmabeth) he will be made more than welcome and we can discuss things and answer any questions he has.

Anonymous said...

What a man! Good luck to you Jordan! I hope your career really takes off :)

wellie boots said...

Hats off to Jordan. And what a fantastic opportunity :)

thuggydog said...

wow thats good news bless him, if he needs guinee pig, thuggy dog could do with some more training...pulling on the lead and barking at other dogs.....she is more than welcome to offer herself to him for some practice.....

Val Harvey, APDT, UK said...

I am pleased (but not surprised) that Jordan is looking at other methods. I think he said that he uses reward methods sometimes - which is good - but where his knowledge falls down is in respect of the damage done by quick-fix/dominance based methods.

I would be pleased to try and help him understand that reward based training is not just for 'sometimes'.

Muriel said...

Beverley, feel free to offer him a free place on our Behaviour Adjustment Training (BAT) seminar at KC Building in June! I'm sure Grisha won't mind :)

emmahawkes said...

Rubbish, I wouldn't trust him as far as I could throw him. He should have taken all these opportunities before he took a tv job. Too late

emmahawkes said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
IMC said...

Yes, Iron Mountain's offer stands firm.

And I still promise not to put my foot in anyone's mouth (probably)

Anna Osborne
Iron Mountain Canine

Sally Bradbury said...

Anyone, including (and especially) Jordan who wants to find out more about clicker training for puppies, problem behaviours and agility is welcome to come and see what we do anytime.

www.scallywagsdogs.com

Anonymous said...

I noticed that Jordan is based in North London. Tell him to pop down Finsbury Park on any Sunday 11am-4pm and see Sue Evans (she was brains behind the KC Accredited Instructors Scheme). She'll help him and hopefully get him to come on a PDTI course.

Donna U said...

Yayyyy - I love a happy ending. Fantastic news! I genuinely wish Jordan well and take my hat off to him. :o) x

Janet Finlay said...

Good for him to want to learn. I have a couple of TTouch workshops in Yorkshire in November and December - he is welcome to come along to one.

LBDR said...

Well done Jordon for looking for another way, you will not be sorry and I am sure neither will all the canines you come into contact with once you have learnt and practiced your new skills, I see our friends at Iron Mountain have offered to work with you and you can always come to Large Breed Dog Rescue as well
Good luck I am sure you will enjoy learning other methods

Sharon
Large Breed Dog Rescue

Anonymous said...

I am really surprised that his credentials/qualifications werent checked before going on a TV show! All I can add from sunny Cornwall is take time to observe the dog, and owners, take a detailed history & make a positive plan using reward based methods. I spent time with a food possessive/aggressive staffie,very recently & demonstarted techniques with my "dummy" dog without the staffie present and with no stress to the dog, lots of tasty treats & clicks & leave commands &the owners could remove the food bowl in the space of an hour. No fear or upset on anyones part. Roxy on TV is a small terrier...what on earth would he have done with a GSD or an even larger breed???

pawsforprogress said...

We have so much going on in the next few months that we can't offer anything just now - but if he wants to get in touch further down the line he'd be welcome to visit (@PawsforProgress). Would love the chance to explain to him why it is so important to educate others in kind, fair and (very!) effective methods. Force and intimidation doesn't solve problems. But if young people are given a chance, guided with good education in dog behaviour, they can become such amazing dog trainers it's a joy to watch them work.Glad to see Jordan's also willing to learn, and that there are so many kind dog trainers out there who are willing to help him.

credible said...

Good for you, Jordan. I wish you every success.

Tara Bates PgDip (cabc), BSc (hons) said...

Good on Jordan! I Think that is fantastic! As you say it takes quite a lot of character to step up and admit you may have been wrong and that your willing to change, especially when its in such public view!

grotbag said...

He regrets not getting more control of the edit and not having it badged 'don't try this at home'. A lot of the shots were out of sequence. Roxy is fine he wanted me to know.

But wasn't it his production company ? surely he would have had some input.

Sian said...

This is such good news! Massive kudos to Jordan for NOT taking the usual stand of "force" or "dominance" trainers who just dig theri heels in, call us permissive namby-pamby treat-slingers, refuse to learn, and refuse to consider they could be wrong.
Good on ya Jordan :-)
And PLEASE someone teach him why Cesar Millan the twit is NOT to be idolised at all!

Tc said...

Fantastic but please don't feature him in your magazine at least until he gas gone away and done some groundwork and hard study.
He could turn himself around, particularly after being offered all those opportunities since his phone call. However, just like dog training, his learning will not happen overnight.

Anonymous said...

There are many I'd suggest - there are some wonderful trainers in APDT, APBC, (How about Sarah Whitehead's courses/classes?); Kay Lawrence Learning about Dogs courses, and so on. I'd also recommend Paddy Driscoll at Teamwork Training in Lincoln. I believe she, along with Liz Kershaw, was one of the very first clicker trainers in the UK.

TheOldDogListener said...

There is NO one way to train a dog “Dog Training” will never work, because the real problem is never addressed fully.

The problem is that the whole ethos of living with dogs is looked on from the human point of view.

Dogs chose to live with humans, and in doing so, learnt early on that if they wanted to “Fit in and belong”, they had to learn from their humans what was acceptable, and what was not. This is where the problems arise, because like dog’s, there is a vast “type” of humans out there, some with the right balanced upbringing and morals, some without, and as we all know there are no social boundaries for behaviour in humans, be they rich or poor, as the present recession shows us all.
Even those given every chance in life can show disrespect for their actions and the consequences they cause to others with total disregard and oral forethought, if it means they personally gain what they want out of it all.

The two words “Dog Training” should have something in-between, to start bringing together the void that is getting bigger everyday, “Dog Owner Training”
Just as puppies, in those early days of puppy hood, learn from their mothers, and siblings what is appropriate behaviour, and what is not, so human society should also learn, this way. Many do, but in our busy life, we reject our elders, instead of having them within the home, passing on their experience, we send our kids off to nursery, or employ care givers most times the same age as ourselves, and that passed down knowledge gets lost further, will every passing generation.

Just as we humans have to take lessons to “learn” to drive a car, what makes it “tick” how to handle it, what keeps it fit and healthy and running, what to do around other cars, and the “rules” of the road, and just how dangerous that car can be in the “wrong hands” ONLY then can we take a test to prove we have learnt and absorbed all the information, and then “if” we pass that test, we are allowed to drive that car on the road amongst other cars, armed with enough knowledge to hopefully start us on the “right road” for a partnership of constant learning, as different situations arise, like handling on ice, or that new experience of all those cars when motorway driving! How scary!

Although we have all met that driver with no morals, who thinks he or she owns the road, we are at least armed with enough knowledge a maybe experience to handle the situation when it arises.

Not so with Dog ownership, and for the Mothers out there, we all agree that whilst pregnant, we get all the help out there, but once that screaming baby is put in our arms, POOF! They all disappear, and we are left helpless and alone wondering what the hell do we do next?
Many of us reject our Mothers or Mother in laws “advice” and soldier on, after all “Things” have changed and improved since their day, but in all honesty have they?
Twenty years down the line and looking back, many realise they did end up using must of that advice, because it worked.

So one really needs to learn from both the pup with its Mum, and the human with its Mum, just how “BOTH” learn, and in doing so, one will have a better understanding on just how to form a partnership with “man & woman’s” best friend.

And it starts with communication, if you don’t talk to your dog, your dog won’t learn your language and to communicate to you.

Tabitha said...

Total credit to Jordan for having such a good attitude.

As it happens, we had a session with Jordan last year as he was recommended to me when I needed help with my rescue dog. Some of his advice did help.

I think once he gets some help from more experienced trainers, he'll be great :)

TheOldDogListener said...

And it starts with communication, if you don’t talk to your dog, your dog won’t learn your language and to communicate to you.
Are dogs bilingual? Yep, look at all the languages in the world, and all the dogs in the world.
We on the other hand find it hard to learn languages other than our own, but we have learnt that going to that country and immersing ourselves in that language by listening, watching, and absorbing, not only the spoken word, but the body language, the tone of the voice, and the look on the face’s of those in conversation is the quickest way to learn, because if we want to communicate and survive, we have to!

The same goes for the dog. Take a look around you, especially those of you with puppies, they spend a high majority of their time just watching us, and in doing so, they are learning just how to communicate with us.
As babies and toddlers we learnt from all that was going on around us, we watched Mum or Dad, and we soon learnt what hurt if we got too close under their feet!
Like sitting kids in front of the telly, or with computer games etc, so we can “get on” with our busy overworked lives.
Shutting puppy in a pen, when we are at home, means they don’t get the chance to “People watch” and learn whilst young just what’s expected of them, and in turn, they learn to amuse themselves, and find their own company is more rewarding, so why should they then suddenly be interested in us, just because we suddenly want to be interested in them?
Our child has a “terrible 2’s” paddy, screams and lashing out, or dogs bark incessantly
We tell them both to be quiet,
They get the reaction they wanted
Our attention,
So they learn that next time, they need to try a bit harder……….See?

But if you ignore the bad behaviour, and wait till they have calmed down, and then distract them into something pleasurable,
They both begin to learn that “bad behaviour” gets them no attention, but good behaviour gets them everything!
Dogs learn by example, just as we do,
It’s not just for Dog Owner handling, but a rule for life,

“Treat others the way you want to be treated yourself”

Dogs do understand everything we say, we just have to learn how to say it properly, so we avoid misunderstanding, and misinterpretation.

It’s us humans that really need to learn from dogs!

Blackshuck said...

Credit to Jordan, and those who want to help him learn, but less impressed with the offer of free help and seminar places that those of us who have worked hard and are less able to afford it have to pay for.

Many people struggle financially to keep up their education in dog training; I know of people who have taken on debt to get a degree education in behaviour and are skilled and dedicated but simply unable to afford to attend expensive seminars, so in contrast I find offers to people on the merit of their 'having been on telly and gained some notoriety' rather insulting.

Anonymous said...

The advice that Ems gives on Positively cannot hurt a dog, both her and the regular members have turned may dogs round in a positive way. Most of these members who are now helping others came onto Positively desperate because of their dogs and are now sharing their experiences which is really helping desperate owners.

With positive training you have to work with the dog you have not the dog you want, every dog is different so advice has to be taylored to that dog. I have learnt a lot on there which my dogs have benefitted from.

Not only are you given advice on what to do but also why you should do it, what your dog is going through etc. so the owner understands WHY.

Well done Jordan for wanting to learn more, Positively is a good place to learn many different ways that have worked.

Karen Rhodes said...

Whilst I am pleased that Jordan is asking for help, I do agree with Blackshuck. I find it very unfair that he is now inundated with offers for free places on courses. I put myself though university and have done a few training courses and read a lot of books. I have wanted to do dog training since I can remember and have always been told "go and get experience" and unfortunately that usually comes first as hands on experience in boarding kennels and rescue kennels, the wage of which does not help to pay for study. I am currently a voluntary dog trainer (nothing too taxing, mainly basic manners, walking on thge lead etc) mainly because I am a stay at home Mum and cannot afford to get myself accredited or set up my own business. The area I live in is in dire need of dog training classes and I already have enough people interested to run several a week, but I want to do things properly. Yes, I probably do sound a bit annoyed and jealous, but I know I am not the only one and do not see why most people have to work hard and get into debt when others get things for free. Good luck to Jordan, I personally have nothing against him and would actually love to talk dog training with him, but if he keeps getting offered free courses, surely that's as bad as the BBC giving him the dog training slot due to him knowing a director and weren't a lot of people complaining about that? If he really wants to have a dog training career, then he is going to get a lot more respect if he goes out there and works hard for it.

Karen Wild, Dog trainer and behaviourist, APBC member said...

I do think there are good points here. Whilst I would happily help out as Carri suggests, there are certain loyalties at stake too. I do feel for the students on dog training and behaviour degree courses that have already spent money and time enrolling on these courses to pursue their career goal. This is a serious industry which is not reflected by the lighthearted love we have for our dogs. I am sorry to say that I often get emails from people asking for work experience that I cannot even begin to provide. Can Jordan enrol with the APDT and start at the beginning, like everyone else? Can he enrol on the Newscastle or Lincoln Animal Behaviour degree courses? It can still be documented. It isn't my intention to sound harsh but we need to promote the proper way - there is a proper way, I believe that wholeheartedly - and no shortcuts or back doors should be promoted. Equally, properly accredited courses are what should be offered. This is meant in motherly and friendly fashion as anyone who knows me personally will realise. It is good that Jordan is learning, and let's hope the publicity that goes with it will carry him on the path that he wants, but truly, my appeal is, please please, let's make it the proper path.

Pat said...

I am glad he wants to learn and hope he does take up the kind offers he has had.

I also understand the feelings of those who have worked hard and paid to get where they are. It must be galling.

However, because this lad is still newsworthy, I hope he is converted to positive methods. Because that ensuing publicity can only help ensure the wider public are kind to their dogs. For the dogs' sake, it will be worth it.

Anonymous said...

So pleased to read this. Many people would run a mile after an experience like this, but to seek help and try to better himself is fantastic. This is the last thing I expected, so very pleasantly surprised! Good luck in your new venture, Jordan :)

Anonymous said...

Good on you Jordan for rising above it all. I felt sorry for you from the off. No one has given Roxy's owners any credit - surely if they thought Roxy was that stressed they would have asked you to stop, whether they "naively believed an expert" or not as some people have said. I think the whole thing has been blown out of proportion and stirred up into a frenzy, probably by organisations who have a financial interest in getting people on-board with their techniques, and who demonise Cesar Milan (someone who has saved and rebalanced more dangerous dogs than these trainers have had clients I suspect)- hmm the word 'jealous' springs to mind! And now they're offering you some free training and making sure everyone knows about - great PR for them!! I notice those who have shouted the loudest haven't actually demonstrated how they'd deal with Roxy's issues! Would make interesting viewing.

Ems said...

I have to agree with those saying it is a tad unfair (though granted, life isn't fair!) that Jordan is being offered free seminars, lectures, training when others have to pay for it.
There are loads of courses I would love to do to further my education, anyone want to pay for those for me?

As for the last Anon post - lots of us explained how to deal with food aggression, its something I will probably explain once a week over on the Positively forums if not more and that is free for anyone to join.
As for owners being 'naive' and allowing things to happen that they possibly feel are not 'quite right' - this happens a lot. Owners perceive the trainer to be a person in authority, someone who can fix their problem, who knows what they are doing, so yes they DO accept what they are told much of the time, even if a voice in their head is screaming 'no'. This is actually a well studied phenomenon called the Milgram Effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

credible said...

As Jordan says "It's all about the dogs". Who cares if he gets a freebie or two. If he's got the guts to put his credibility on the line, and turn this thing around, then all credit to him. His appearance on TOS gave him instant fame (infamy?), but the ensuing furore caused him to crash and burn. Just think what it now means, in terms of public awareness, for him to openly embrace and promote positive training techniques. It's a win win.

alfmcmalf said...

Just catching up with this story. Tremendous well done Beverley for tackling it so effectively.

I have watched it now on i player so to Jordan I say I like the fact that he wants to work with breeds like staffies, and work on behaviours like dog on dog aggression. But I am horrifed that he so clearly hopes this will get him a media career rather than a career training and supporting dog owners. By all means Jordan prove us wrong, put in the work, get the experience, you say that you want to keep learning every day. Please go and do so and come back to us with about 7,000 of them under your belt. And yes pay for your development like others have to. Dog training should not be seen as a fast track to B celebrity status. If you want that can I suggest you take up baking.

Philippa

Jan Westby Dip CABT, MAPDT 145 said...

Hmm. Whilst I'm glad that Jordan has said he wants to learn, as hopefully that'll mean one less Cesar-promoter in the world, I'm still a little concerned that the only things he regrets are 'not getting more control of the edit and not having it badged 'don't try this at home'. A lot of the shots were out of sequence. Roxy is fine he wanted me to know.'
Is that all he's concerned about? No apology or acknowledgement of the huge distress he caused Roxy? And on whose say-so is Roxy fine? We know that Jordan does not, at the moment, have the skills to decide that one way or the other.
And as others have said, what about all the other people out there working hard to pay for and put themselves through recognised courses to gain the knowledge and skills necessary to become a good positive trainer? Maybe they should appear on national TV, abuse a dog, defend their position and then when that doesn't work take up all the offers of free courses and support that flood in.
Well done for wanting to change, Jordan, but the cynic in me wonders what would be happening if there hadn't been a national outcry at the hideous treatment of Roxy?
And the ones who deserve the much bigger well done are the many trainers out there who have chosen to spend their hard-earned money and put the time and effort in to educate themselves about dog training and behaviour and not go down the 'dominance' route in the first place. Now that does deserve a click and treat.

Jan Westby Dip CABT, MAPDT 145

Katie Scott-Dyer said...

I applaud Jordon for his grown up stance and asking for help. I agree with the points raised by others that the BBC no matter what have given this young man fame and noteriety and the offers of free places on expensive courses and seminars is very kind but insulting to those of us struggling to do so. I'm an autistic single parent working long hours just to pay my mortgage let alone for all the CPD i want & need to do! Wish him well? Yes I do. But he should pay and work hard at it like the rest of us. By all means offer him placements but at his expense! He will be followed by the BBC so financially speaking it's likely he could afford it!

Grisha Stewart said...

Muriel, I don't mind at all about offering a free spot in the June BAT seminar to Jordan. I hope he can fully take in the way that BAT helps reactive dogs, because he may have a very long career and be able to help (or hurt) a lot of dogs.

Jordan, good for you. Please do go to some of the events offered to you! If you learn from my seminar and can afford to do so, please donate the seminar fee to a dog charity in the UK, or use it to register another dog trainer for a dog-friendly seminar.