Who is your behaviour hero?
Just been having a fascinating conversation about fashion in training methodology.
Who do you look up to? Who do you regard as your inspiration.
Are you a reward-based type of owner - or are you a compulsion fan?
I'll reveal my personal prejudices - that after 18/19 years of doing Dogs Today, which is often filled with the best behaviour brains, I'd rather hoped that reward-based would have become the norm and that Barbara Woodhouse's stomp and jerk would have by now been consigned to nightmares, but there seems to have been a retrograde step where people who dominate dogs have become iconic.
That to bully is now more fashionable than to reward.
Is it a reflection of today's society? What are we teaching our kids? Is it the carrot or the stick in your home?
Depressingly the most popular trainer on TV these days has been seen stringing up a dog, doing alpha rolls and using electric shock collars. Are people watching to be entertained or are they, perish the thought, learning how to do it in their own homes?
Who is your behaviour hero and why?
Let's just see who gets the votes - perhaps I'm just behind the times and that compulsion is the new black and I'm just out of step...
Check out what the American behaviourists are saying...
I particularly draw your attention to a video clip which I have to say shocked our office to silence.
Who do you look up to? Who do you regard as your inspiration.
Are you a reward-based type of owner - or are you a compulsion fan?
I'll reveal my personal prejudices - that after 18/19 years of doing Dogs Today, which is often filled with the best behaviour brains, I'd rather hoped that reward-based would have become the norm and that Barbara Woodhouse's stomp and jerk would have by now been consigned to nightmares, but there seems to have been a retrograde step where people who dominate dogs have become iconic.
That to bully is now more fashionable than to reward.
Is it a reflection of today's society? What are we teaching our kids? Is it the carrot or the stick in your home?
Depressingly the most popular trainer on TV these days has been seen stringing up a dog, doing alpha rolls and using electric shock collars. Are people watching to be entertained or are they, perish the thought, learning how to do it in their own homes?
Who is your behaviour hero and why?
Let's just see who gets the votes - perhaps I'm just behind the times and that compulsion is the new black and I'm just out of step...
Check out what the American behaviourists are saying...
I particularly draw your attention to a video clip which I have to say shocked our office to silence.
Comments
They don't allow choke chains, but half checks are recommended seemingly as a matter of course and we are told that if a dog lunges that's a good chance to do a 'really good check' which I believe is something Babs used to say!
Sadly as long as people still pay for the display team from this club they will keep going, teaching people to yank their dogs about, force them into sits, stand on leads etc. None of their methods worked wth the trainers own dogs (as I was often told they wouldn't bring their own dogs as they'd be shown up) yet they were happy to keep teaching them to us poor idiots.
My heros are the people from the decent clubs, out there every day, trying to teach people kind ways.
I have yet to see any trainer strangle a dog as CM did in that video though.
Ego is clearly involved with many of these dominance trainers. "I must be 'in charge'", they say. "I must get the biggest dog, and force it to 'submit'". It is just plain bullying. It is macho physicality at its very worst. It also signifies a total lack of concern for the dogs and owners in question. Finally, it indicates that the trainer has been stuck in the past for far too long.
The problem with 'theories' is that they are used to justify the method.
Given the recent animal welfare act and the ongoing cascade of complaints, and court cases, issued to bullying trainers, I look forward to some very red faces.
I would love to see something about this in the magazine, something making clear the different methods, and their pro's and cons!! x
Dr Ian Dunbar, not just because he uses kind, humane methods, but he also simplifies training and behaviour modification. Dog owners are all too often fixed on asking why does my dog do this, why does he behave in this way. While it is important to ask these questions, what is more important is to think. Well can I change the behaviour, and what should I do to change it. I believe in the principle of K.I.S.S. "Keep it Short and Simple" Don't try to analyse too much, just look at what you can do to effectively address the problem, in a kind, humane, positive way.
Other behaviour heroes high on my list:
Karen Pryor
Kathy Sdao
Patricia B McConnell
There are more but I'll keep it short and simple
His methods are different for every dog and they make sense A combination of reward and discipline is the way to go, all reward and nothing else results in out of control dogs which have no place in peoples homes. Bit similar to training children really,look where thats got us a generation of thugs, there are no consequences for bad behaviour, just the usual reward to shut them up I have had great success with CM s methods with my pack of four and no I dont bash em or roll em but i do INSIST they do as I want and not what they want
Just try stopping a stock chaser with rewards and dont forget fear of the consequences is how we all learn, its what stops us running in the road, and playing on the railway. Oh and yes I think Supernanny is the way to go too !
/www.drsophiayin.com/dominance.php
I walk my two lovely terriers every day and along the route there are a number of dogs, some in gardens and some out on the road, that bark aggressively at us. At first my two just returned the barks but this escalated to me being pulled along by them even before we get to these encounters, regardless of whether the dogs are home or not.
Distracting them i.e. touch on the neck and a 'shhh' just as they start to anticipate the encounter has worked for me. Now the barking dogs have calmed and we can pass quietly and without any hassle. It feels like they trust me now and just ignore what they once dreaded.
This has given me more confidence and as a result we now have very positive encounters with dogs on leads too.
I didn't feel that I was being dominant in any way. But maybe I'm just an a la carte Cesar fan, picking and choosing what is right for me and my girls! Let common sense prevail.
I can't give a top 5 specific trainers but I find myself most watching and listening to the trainers on Dog Borstal.
I advocate my clients to become the expert on their own dog, not to copy someone else's on TV. No-one is saying their methods don't work. There are alternatives that don't leave you with the power/dominance/ego boosting energy rush of CM. Maybe that's something we should examine in ourselves.
This makes getting people to truly understand using positives very, very difficult since they THINK they have been.
Ok, heroes:
-Ian (and Kelly!) Dunbar
-Karen Pryor (I do not blame her for the local trainer's misunderstanding of clicker training in action!)
-Susan Garrett (her stuff is NOT just about agility and even the agility stuff can be modified for practical uses)
-and of course my own personal team of twitter trainers :-)
Ian Dunbar - I am about 25% through "How to teach a new dog old tricks" and I have really learned alot.
Patricia McConnell - I try to read everything she writes.
Suzanne Clothier - I highly recommend "Bones Would Rain From the Sky"
The common thread between the three is the emphasis on the relationship.
Dunbar's great but I never think of him as a behaviourist. Top trainer though.
Who do you like? The lovely, sweet, gentle, "modern" puppy cuddler? Or the horrid medieval abusive dog beater? The answer will reveal whether you are a good person or some sort of criminal. Please discuss.
My heroes are trainers who actually get results -- meaning the dog's poor behavior disappears, and he learns new skills and achievements that elevate him, who recognize and provide a dog what he needs, not what makes the "trainer" feel validated, who can think for themselves.
The screed about the alleged dog beaters is particularly instructive coming from someone who claims that it's impossible to train a bearded collie (!?!) to come when called and refrain from bolting. (Which, for the record, I've achieved with no special difficulty with five or six examples of the breed, mostly dogs already identified as "challenging," using normal balanced methods and not permitting any excuses from their owners.) Beardies are a popular breed for competition obedience in this country. What's wrong with the ones over there?
My thoughts are that he practically asphixiated the dog, hence its quiet behaviour although I would question why it wasn't muzzled.
I do not claim to be a dog trainer, I am just a dog owner. But if you look back you'll find its my Springer that is having problems, not my Beardie!
Although my Beardie has escaped through gates left open and I concede it woudl have been a good idea to train him not to need enclosure, be he is a curious soul and the open gate was a temptation. Didn't take much to get him back, although him finding his way home unaided seems unlikely - he can't find the hole in the hedge that went through 5 mins earlier or scale vertical walls like our Springer. Oscar the Beardie appears devoid of spatial awareness - a bit like his owner. Tess on the other hand appears to have Sat Nav.
Our Springer's problems are complex and we're seeing a new vet to see if there is a more subtle underlying medical prob - certainly don't think someone strangling her would add to the mix!
Oscar can sit, lie down, come back, give his paw and that's about all I've got around to teaching him. He walks okay on the lead, loves everyone. No ambitions to make him an obedience champion.
Tess can do all the above plus jump on a table like she's an agility dog - which was a stupid thing to teach her as can be annoying and embarrassing when she misreads the signal.
It's the erratic nature of her recall that's the problem. Slavish and immediate most of the time - and then at others a glazed expression as if she not only doesn't hear but doesn't even know who we are.
Things really shouldn't get too personal here, this needs to be an ethical debate.
Which method do you pick for training:
Reward or dominance?
If you're saying only behaviourists or trainers should have a view, well I disagree.
Dog owners are the customers.
I then had a one to one session on recall, which involved using an extended lead and "checking" him to come back. Again, worked for a while. The he developed severe nervous problems which resulted in may months of heartache of seeing him terrified of open spaces and refusing a walk.
We consulted a lovely Behavourist - Lynne Rixon www.harmonydogs.co.uk who worked with us, changed his diet and introduced us to the Mekuti harness, so control was easier. She also suggested he may need a companion. Enter Beardie #2, and I have trained her myself. Her recall is excellent, and she sits and waits for treats and so on.
I have my dogs as companions, and like any animal or mammal (incl humans) they have their moments, but they know they are loved, they have their little habits, hate fireworks and chase cats!
I have watched Cesar Millan when Beardie #1 had problems and was quite interested in his kind methods, but stopped when he introduced a shock collar. Similarly the kind methods demonstrated by Dog Borstal are worth following, but I stop at hurting my dogs.
A note on Beardies to Heather - Glad you have trained Beardies, but they are skittish and have their moments - as I have put above. Don't use your "success" to publicly critcise someone who is encouraging an open debate, and at least is honest that her Beardie is a little slow on the recall uptake! Mine took nearly 3 years.
So I am well aware of the dilemma of having to "channel" instincts into a pet lifestyle. I feel we are already up against it when choosing such breeds as domestic companions because when we talk about a well trained dog we are really talking about one that has had to have its behaviour modified significantly - aren't we?
The other consideration is that of "context". In the context of living in Arizona, for instance, with the threat of rattle snakes on dog walks would I resort to using a shock collar on my dog to teach him to avoid snakes? Actually I don't think I would. I would rather curtail his off lead activities. However would I apply Cesar Millan's techniques for helping me establish good behaviours around our front door here in York city and on meeting and greeting people? Yes I did. And they have worked a treat. I am not bullying my dog just giving him clear direction and rules. So in conclusion when used appropriately I am a Cesar Millan practioner. I loathe the constant "treating" techniques of others - they do not appeal to me at all.
Have any of you ever retrained a biter? Bueller? Anyone?
Here's the sequence of what I saw happen --
Wolfish dog targets at border collie, as expected in this setup.
Trainer taps him on the flank to break focus.
Wolfish dog redirects extreme aggression onto trainer.
Tellingly, he does not go for the trainer's legs, but makes a gambit high up for the trainer's head and body core. This is a sign of serious intent. So is the dog's silence. A dog who is protesting in a confused and snappy way will make a lot of noise. A silent dog means to hurt you. To punish you for insulting him.
Trainer does what any competent animal handler does -- he protects himself using the leash. At least twice, the trainer offers the dog the option of continuing to walk parallel, and the dog resists that option and goes back to a head/core slash attack. The trainer is first and foremost in a fight with the dog now; a goodtrainer who is mentally prepared can both win the fight and teach the dog something important.
Wolfish dog continues to make slash attacks towards body core (hence the defense injuries on trainer's arms). This is a very tall dog with a rather short trainer, which makes both self-defense and instruction quite a bit more difficult. It also makes it physically impossible for trainer to "hang" the dog, as he has often been accused of doing.
Trainer continues to control the attacking dog with the leash.
Would you all have liked to see the trainer give the dog some slack at this point, perhaps offer a cookie? Please explain how you would protect yourself from attack in this circumstance. Stating that you would not put yourself in this position -- which is good policy for people who don't know how to train aggressive dogs -- is not an acceptable answer. There are those of us who are paid to take these risks on. We didn't create the problem, and wishing the problem didn't exist doesn't make it go away.
When the dog signals that he is ready to call off the attack -- that he knows he has lost -- trainer puts him on his side. This is deftly done. The dog stays on his side without physical force.
The dog is breathing normally while on his side, given the amount of physical and emotional exertion involved in the attempted attack. His tongue and mucous membranes are a normal color. He is not cowering or trembling. He is fully capable of getting up. He does not.
Now, were this a trained dog -- one that had at least some obedience commands -- and had it come at me in that manner, I'd have kept the dog in motion and started requiring first simple, then more difficult mental tasks from him. But that's me, and I'm going to guess that this dog has no obedience training.
The only thing more instructive than this video are the various responses that people have to it. Tells me a lot of about what they imagine about animals.
if i wanted to "train" him to sit or anything of that nature then thats a different issue and i would use all reward training with no compulsion
I wonder why those who support more confrontational methods feel the need to characterise positive training as "cuddling puppies" and "offering a cookie"? That is not positive training! I use TTouch which reduce stress in the animal (which makes them more able to learn) and I use clicker training which gives the animal clear information about what I want them to do. Neither of these are about about cuddling or offering cookies. But they are about training with respect and improving communication. So I don't expect dogs to behave as I want if I haven't shown them clearly what I want. And I don't punish them for stress reactions or, indeed, for my own mistakes.
I've got to say that I'm baffled that anybody would think you've got to use those methods with any dog. To attempt what CM does with dogs who use aggressive behaviour seems particularly ill advised.
I have a male bullmastiff who is now 8 years old. He has very good social skills with other dogs. He's polite when dogs visit us, gentle with scared dogs and good at calming down very bouncy dogs. He's getting a bit old for it now but people who have dogs that have difficulty socialising have often asked me if they can walk their dog with my bullmastiff.
He wasn't always like that. When he was younger, he had a very unpleasant experience which left him mistrustful of other dogs and he dealt with that by being aggressive. He very nearly killed another dog at the height of his problems.
Nothing would have made me consider using the sorts of methods CM uses. My bullmastiff would quite rightly have hospitalised me if I'd behaved like that toward him. He's a sweet, sweet dog. He's a retired PAT dog and is very good with people but I'd never ever recommend behaving aggressively toward him.
I used TTouch, lots of positive reinforcement of behaviour I wanted, lots of setting up situations so I'd get the behaviour I wanted, lots of patience and lots of help and support from local dog owners.
CM's handling of that dog is horrendous. He clearly sets up a situation where the dog will attack him. Whether this is done deliberately for the cameras or through incompetence I don't know but the dog's reaction is totally his fault.
After doing that, he doesn't have enough responsibility to admit that this mistake was his but continues to blame the dog.
And for some reason, he believes that he is a good leader. That's not what I consider an example of good leadership.
Attempts to suppress behaviour as a means of solving problems just seems odd to me.
You can train a dog to do pretty much anything with a bit of planning and some well timed rewards. That includes behaving well in situations that they currently find difficult.
Yes, I think so. Read my Fred's blog (from the beginning). He had to be muzzled because he bit me so often, and although he's a small dog he jumps really high and bites while he's up there.
Possibly he bit for a different reason from the dog in that video, but you mention redirected aggression, and that's why Fred was biting me. He couldn't get to the dogs that were exciting him, so he'd bite me. Often whether or not I was trying to refocus his attention to me.
I found I could protect myself adequately with a muzzle. It felt as if I was exploding from frustration numerous times but I never strangled my dog.
Fred sometimes still needs his muzzle, and occasionally will still use his teeth if he's in pain, so perhaps he's not been 'retrained' at all, but the vast majority of things that used to trigger Fred to bite don't trigger him anymore.
People regularly compliment Fred on his behaviour now.
My heros are the people on the 'bookshelf' on Fred's blog, as I read everything I could to try to help him. I
Does the dog really want to "relax" or is it just so scared for it's life after being choked and forced to the ground that it feels it's the safer option?
Training is not about creating fear in your dog...any dog that fears you will most likely do as it's told. It's about fun and encouraging the dog to WANT to work for you. Training is about bonding on a level of great trust in each other.
CM uses far to many refrences to dominant behaviour. I think there are in fact very few real cases of dominant dogs. Many people have been led to believe that a dog who pulls you out on his walk is dominant as he's leading you..what a load of baloney!
Granted CM has done alot for dogs on death row and advocated for the rights of Pit Bulls but i don't think this is an excuse for his methods of training with other dogs.
It scares me that people may be sitting at home thinking this is the right way to train dogs!
Louise
Oh Heather, shame on you for anthropomorphizing like this!
Dogs have no concept of punishment - that relies not only on the possession of abstract thought, but also the awareness of abstract thought in others, ie by believing that the recipient can interpret the punishment.
And the idea that a dog could conceive of "insult" (which I assume you mean in the standard, and not clinical, meaning) is laughable!
That poor dog was only trying to defend himself, and comparisons drawn between dogs and children (over the age of three, anyway) are utterly meaningless - even a young child can reflect and understand abstracts, no dog can understand them in any meaningful way.
No good trainer or behaviourist (or owner or vet) should EVER allow themselves to be in a position to be attacked!
You do that by not provoking the dog, controlling his responses using distraction and positive reinforcement, and then slowly rebuilding the kind of trust and confidence he needs to see you as an ally and leader, not a threat or a dominant bully.
I'm shocked by this video and I think the fact that most police forces, the army, and security-dog trainers have moved over to positive reinforcement, and away from punishment and domination, speaks more clearly for what actually works in the real world.